OK, Let's have a good old fashioned debate...

wotsitagain · OK, Let's have a good old fashioned debate...

Opening my post after a week away, I came across something from my union asking me to sign agreement to a petition. The petition is to ban BNP members from being teachers or governors.

Now I am against racism, or any sort of discrimination in any form, and I enjoyed watching Nick Griffin being turned to mincemeat by Bonnie Greer in that Question Time programme. BUT, surely to say that teachers and governors cannot hold a particular set of "values" strikes at the heart of our democratic nation?

Discuss.

jog_on

How can teachers be expected to encourage a tolerant and non-discriminative attitude if they, themselves, are members of a fascist party? I don't see the two going hand in hand ever, at all.

If people have views like that, I don't believe that they can provide education of the highest quality to ALL children in their care.

Rainbow_Bright

Totally unacceptable, IMO. Like you, I despise rascism or any other descrimination BUT to simply ban the BNP from any kind of public life is not going to make the issue go away. They have been democratically elected and therefore, if BNP members are banned from teaching, then that should be followed with a ban on membership of any political party.

Rather than attempting to suppress extreme views we (ie. unions, the government and average Joe) should be seeking to identify and address the issues which have led to the BNP gaining the level of public support that they have.

That said, I do agree with jog_on. It's just I don't think it works to fight small-mindedness with small-mindedness....

daffodil23

I don't see how the argument about banning BNP members from being teachers works. All it is doing is suppressing free speech even more.

People have all sorts of opinions that others disagree with but they can still teach. Yes, the BNP is an awful party with awful views but everyone is entitled to have their own views, however awful we see them. It doesn't mean it is going to affect them as a teacher.

Obviously if a teacher is seen to be racist in their classroom then that has to be dealt with but it should be dealt with for any teacher, irrelevant of their party membership.

thehawk

What about people who hold sexist or ageist views. Ban them too!

The point of a democracy is freedom of speech. Therefore when someone comes up with views we don't like, they still should have the right to express them - but not in the classroom. Ooh! That's stopping freedom of speech but that is indoctrination.

The reson that the BNP has support is because their supporters have a belief that the "immigrants" are taking "our" jobs, houses, benefits and committing the crimes on our streets. This should be an open discussion, and that would show their inaccuracy. The fact that the main political parties only want to ridicule them rather than argue the issues with them, is what worries me.
Then the fact that we are not allowed to celebrate our "englishness" or "britishness" also attracts people to the BNP. This issue too should be addressed.

greyengine

I think I probably come down on the side of free speech in this debate, but having said that, I would feel very uncomfortable if someone with BNP views was teaching one of my children, and I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable about appointing someone with these views if I was involved with the appointment process.

smileylady

I don't think such extreme views have any place inside a classroom. I agree we should allow freedom of speech and public debate in an adult forum, however children are too quick to accept the views of those in roles of trust. A BNP teacher is a step too far IMHO.

thehawk

A couple of women in my staffroom have very anti-men views. Can I get them sacked through the GTC on the grounds of sexism???

shinygoldenlady

We can't possibly assess the views/opinions of everybody that works in a school to decide wherever they are acceptable or not. Would you know if someone in your school had these views? Or other prejudices? Would it matter if they did, if they were a wonderful teacher who never communicated these views to the children?
...However, I do agree I would feel very uncomfortable knowing my children (if I had any!) were being taught by someone with these views- very difficult one!

smileylady

Unfortunately we have a BNP member as an elected candidate in my local-ish area. His views are so strong that it provokes an awful atmosphere whenever he is campaigning in town. I really cant see how someone like this could keep his/her views to themselves in a classroom.

shinygoldenlady

jog_on

We had a supply teacher fairly recently who picked on the EAL children all the time and spoke to them in a really patronising way. I don't know whether she purposely did it or whether it was her prejudices showing up. Anyway, she doesn't teach at our school anymore.

The more we can do to protect our children from being singled out and humiliated because of the colour of their skin, their religion, their background, their status etc. the better.

Obviously, at the same time, I do believe that people have the right to believe what they want to, but even subconciously, your views and opinions affect how you respond to others, don't they?

wotsitagain

I agree that it would make the teacher's job very difficult, for example: reporting those racist issues that occur in school. However, just as I can teach whilst having, for some people, an "extreme" faith, surely they should be given the opportunity to try. And then dealt with through the appropriate channels if the need arises. Should I be banned because of my views/faith etc?

smileylady

But does your 'extreme' religion involve targetting/isolating others wotsit?

wotsitagain

Not in my view, but others may feel it does. Banning the BNP teacher could be the thin end of the wedge, who next?

Rainbow_Bright

Nicely summed up, IMO, wotsit.

Banning the BNP is not going to remove everyone who holds those views from a profession. There are a lot of people who sympathise with the BNP but are not signed up members, just as with other parties and organisations.

It would too much like the kind of control politics which went on in the Eastern Bloc, and which still goes on in other non-democratic nations, for my liking.

thehawk

This democracy thing is a pain!

smallholder

Very true Hawk...

"It is a strange fact that freedom and equality, the two basic ideas of democracy, are to some extent contradictory. Logically considered, freedom and equality are mutually exclusive, just as society and the individual are mutually exclusive."

Thomas Mann, writer and winner of Nobel prize for literature

Rainbow_Bright

Die Gebrueder Mann! Germans always know how to sum things up. Smile

wicked witch

I always find issues like this really hard. My gut reaction is to say that they shouldn't be allowed to teach because of the influence that teachers can have on children and young people. Trouble is, as others have said, where do you stop?

magpie nic

I feel like that as well WW.

squiggle7

We have a teacher at school who says because she is a Christian she feels she shouldn't be made to teach other religions in RE (her topics for her year group are Islam and Christianity) and very subtly picks on children of ethnic minority. We have very few ethnic minority children in our school but I had a lovely but very quiet Asian child in my class last year who she had for maths as we set and she would pick him up for very little things that she'd let go with other children, she wouldn't move him up from her bottom group even though he scored a level 5 on every test they did and bottom group were 4C and she would berate him in front of the class. Our HT was made aware of this but nothing happened.

Now, I'm all for teachers being able to hold whatever views, political or otherwise, that they wish as long as they don't transfer them to the children or show them in the way they act and that includes members of the BNP. However, it's clearly not just a case that it's members of the BNP you have to watch out for, it can happen with any teacher that has strong views about something and there is no way you can screen every teacher to make sure they don't hold strong views about something that could be passed on to the children in a detrimental way. I don't think we can say we can completely ban every member from the BNP being something to do with a school unless we extend that to every other political party and religious faith. After all we live in a democracy and by doing this we are being just as bad as the BNP by ourselves being discriminatory.

kathemy

Thanks squiggle, I was going to say what about teachers who are atheists or agnostics? Do they still teach Christianity etc? I do not agree with the BNP, but so long as they do not bring their ideals into the classroom or behave any way that can be construed as 'singling' out certain children they should be able to have their own personal views.

jog_on

I have to say that as an agnostic person, I still teach religious education. If I were Christian, that wouldn't stop me from teaching Islam...so, actually, surely we're not teaching religion saying "This is what is true", we're teaching it as in "This is what some people believe".

Rainbow_Bright

If you're in a faith school, it's slightly different, jog_on, but not massively so. I was brought up a Catholic and teach in a Catholic school but that doesn't stop me from teaching the children about other religions or beliefs. When applying for the job, applicants had to be sympathetic to the religious ethos of the school but it is not a requirement to be Catholic. But then, if you're not sympathetic to the ethos, why would you apply there in the first place?!

I believe in freedom of speech and if I'm allowed to say I think Tony Blair is an idiot then I can't stop anyone else saying what they think. Doesn't mean I agree with it in the slightest, but perhaps it might mean I make more of an effort to not give people like the BNP any more opportunities to gain support.

jog_on

I really can see both sides of the argument, I really can. It seems as though I'm the only person here who actually agrees that banning members of the BNP from our profession is a good idea. I have spent much time protesting against the BNP and their evil ways. I just don't see a place for them in schools. I'm not saying all BNP members are the same - I'm sure that nowhere near the majority have posted razorblades through ethnic minority houses or gang raped...however, it is the beliefs that BNP members share that really scares me. I thought we were supposed to be a caring profession!?!

Rainbow_Bright

Don't get me wrong, jog_on, I agree with the basic idea that people with such offensive views aren't exactly the kind of people I want in teaching.

The problem is that it's just not that simple - the idea that their views are offensive is a subjective one and there are plenty of people who actually do support them. In the event of a ban, those supporters would turn around and demand that some other organisation be banned from the profession and they would have equally valid reasons for such a ban.

The moment you start selectively banning certain groups of people from public life you've taken the first steps towards political oppression.

jog_on

That's what I mean, I can see both sides of the argument...however, the BNP to me are scum!

I'm so left wing that sometimes I'm right wing...which is awful to think of...but it's true! Sad

Just giving my honest opinion on the subject!

Rainbow_Bright

redredrobin

I'm going to jump in here and support jog_on. We are not talking here about people who just have views that we might disagree with. They may try to put on a more acceptable front these days but you don't have to look too far into the past to see what this party really stand for. As for finding them offensive being subjective, where do you draw the line?
Fair enough, speak against them in political arenas but I do not want my children taught by someone who has signed up to a party that spreads such hatred towards them.

Rainbow_Bright

jog_on

I don't think it's being childish by wanting to ban them, nor do I think it's being as bad as they are.

Rainbow_Bright

I don't think it's being childish, jog_on. I just couldn't think of a better way of phrasing it. Wasn't meant as a personal thing, and I'm sorry.

As I said before, I agree that the thought of people with hideous views in the classroom is horrible BUT I also don't think that banning the party will keep such people out of teaching.

It's a bit like the handgun ban, I suppose. If a crazed lunatic wants to get hold of a gun and go on a rampage, they will, ban or not. The same is true of rascists - if they want to infiltrate teaching, they'll do it whether or not the BNP is banned.

We have to rise above it in terms of offering their supporters a viable alternative. Not sure a lot of us are in a position to really understand where their popular support is coming from but that's what political activists in those areas need to do - find out why the BNP have got popular support and look to address those issues.

redredrobin

Anyone can set up a political party - it doesn't mean we have to have anyone teaching. I agree that banning the BNP won't keep racists out but at least it's a start.

Rainbow_Bright

magpie nic

I would very much like to ban BNP members from being teachers, just like I would like anyone else who preaches intolerance, hatred and inequality to be banned. If either of my children told me that someone was teaching them such beliefs, I would remove them from that situation, because I do not feel that anyone has a right to impart their views as if they are the only choice. I do struggle to see how someone with such extreme opinions can keep them out of the classroom, especially if they are teaching the groups they condemn and for that reason I think they should be banned.
On the other hand, I do not see how you can ban one group without banning other groups who are equally offensive, and as abhorrent as the BNP are, there are other groups in our society who are as bad. Anyone who is pedalling their beliefs and showing a lack of respect to anyone in their community should be banned from teaching, regardless of political or other bias.

Rainbow_Bright

Nicely put, magpie.

redredrobin

Rainbow_Bright

That would mean banning groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses (who actively share their beliefs) and most likely, a fair proportion of 'normal' people who, at some point or other in their lives, show a lack of respect to people in their community to some extent or other.

I'm sorry, but IMO you can't beat intolerance with intolerance.

redredrobin

There's a difference between having strong beliefs and intimidation. I have had many a discussion with Jehovah's Witnesses despite our very differing beliefs but I have never felt intimidated. I understand the point you are making about people having their own beliefs but, having lived amongst the intimidation of BNP members I believe there is no comparison.

magpie nic

I agree RRR,though maybe respect was the wrong word for me to use. But I have never known Jehovah's witnesses to threaten violence and recriminations if you do not support their beliefs.
Instead of respect I should maybe have used tolerance, anyone who cannot accept that other groups and individuals have the right to beliefs and practices different to their own and will go to any length to enforce their beliefs on others should be banned. I think most people even with very strong beliefs would stop short of trying to force those beliefs on others, so are not intimidating in the way the BNP and some other groups are.

Rainbow_Bright

My OH has just said exactly what I was thinking. That if you go back to wotsit's original post, the discussion was prompted by a UNION asking the question. OH says, and I agree, that it's nothing to do with a union in any case! Unions are there to represent their members, not to exert their influence on the profession as a whole. If there were to be a ban, it has to be government who pass the bill through parliament.

Maybe you're right and the BNP can't be compared with Jehovah's witnesses (though you could argue that it's unnaceptable for JWs to come knocking on my door at 9pm and force their views upon me whether I've asked them to or not and it could be intimidating to some people).

My point remains that by banning groups like the BNP, we are guilty of the same intolerance that they are. As long as the party is not convicted of anything illegal, they have to be subject to the same conditions as any other political party. Anything else, and there has to be a fundamental change in our political foundations and we can no longer consider ourselves part of the 'free world'.

wotsitagain

We always have a BNP candidate in our elections: local and national. I am not aware of them being intimidatory down here. If people are able to divorce their beliefs from the task of teaching, then I feel that they (the BNP and anyone else holding strong beliefs) are entitled to teach. If, however, they are passing their beliefs/opinions on to children, then they should be subject to the usual disciplinary channels.

I have had concerns over some of the things that my children have had put to them in assemblies and even some lessons, but I recognise that firstly, teachers have the right to hold differing opinions and secondly, this has usually been in a secondary school setting where my own children are able to reason things through for themselves. I teach tolerance to my own children and believe that it is essential that I demonstrate that in my own practice. I am appalled by the attitude of a Christian teacher in, I think, jog-on's school. I teach in a faith school, but it is not the same denomination as myself and there are occasions where I could have chosen to say "I think that is wrong..." or "I believe...". I can only remember one occasion when I actually chose to stand up for my own opinion and that was not a denominational matter - it was a moral issue, and I sure most married women would have shared my feelings. In general though, I do stay quiet when dealing with children who can be so easily swayed.

I would like the right to teach still, I would like the right to share my beliefs with people outside the school setting, and I defend the right for all political beings to voice their opinions. However, if those people whom I allow to have freedom of speech, choose to abuse that or abuse the rights of others, i think it could be withheld - on an individual basis at first, but more widely if necessary.

Sorry, long garbled post!

Rainbow_Bright

redredrobin

This has been a really interesting debate - I love to have my views challenged!
If I accept the argument that people should be allowed to have their own views as long as they don't affect what their job, could anything outside be seen as having an impact? For example, if a teacher was in a BNP march through their home town, shouting chants about immigrants where children from their school could easily see them, could that be tolerated?
(Sorry to change track!)

Rainbow_Bright

Quite probably not, RRR, and I suppose that's where the remit of the much contested GTC code of contact would come into play.

Spot on, though, interesting debate and good to be challenged! Don't think it happens enough these days - people seem to shy away from debate for some reason. Interestingly, I wonder whether the lack of proper public debate, challenging and questioning views could be one reason why the BNP has grown in support in recent years?

So many people seem to just accept the status quo. I remember at Uni, there was always a 'Women's Officer' in the union. Now personally, I was offended by the mere idea that women needed a dedicated officer to represent them but beyond that was the fact that without fail, every candidate's main campaigning point was 'right to choose' which I never agreed with. But if ever a discussion of that topic was brought up, it was brushed under the carpet in a kind of 'let's not rock the boat' manner. Student politics is completely defunct in this day and age, sadly.

wotsitagain

Glad you are enjoying the debate! Me too, interesting to think exactly what rights and freedoms we should have and who should have them.

To add the sideways thoughts, I think it is a shame that people are less interested in debating etc. When I reached 18 (30 years ago), I attended hustings with political candidates and enjoyed the process. Now people are not into the democratic process at all, they will vote for X factor etc but are not interested in far more important and far-reaching decisions, and yes, I think we are the poorer for it.

Rainbow_Bright

I remember a few years ago, when I was living in Nick Clegg's constituency, he came round campaigning. He seemed fairly surprised when I actually asked some pertinent questions on the doorstep!

jog_on

I grew up with William Hague as my local MP - awful!

Rainbow_Bright

Oooh... I rather like William Hague! He's fab in debates! My home MP was and still is Alan Duncan. He is everything I don't like about the Conservatives. But then I lived in Sheffield for a long time with David Blunkett here, there and everywhere and he was even worse. Horrible, horrible man. Now I reside in a fairly secure Lib Dem seat with a very active MP. Maybe it was always meant to be Wink

Can't say I entirely agree with the party but in the grand scheme of things they're ok and he's a fantastic local MP.

jog_on

I don't like him!