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thehawk

level 3 writing

Is a level 3c writer in year 6 comparable to a level 3c writer in year2?

Or is it a completely different species?
Knightrider

Several years ago I was told it was different, because using the then Bucks levelling criteria, there were different sheets with different criteria for KS1 and KS2.

BUT on APP training last week, we were told that one of the benefits of APP is that a 3c is a 3c is a 3c whether in KS1, KS2 or KS3.  All stages use the same APP descriptors, so if the 3c judgement has been made using APP sheets, then it would be the same thing.  So we were told.
thehawk

Knightrider wrote:
Several years ago I was told it was different, because using the then Bucks levelling criteria, there were different sheets with different criteria for KS1 and KS2.

BUT on APP training last week, we were told that one of the benefits of APP is that a 3c is a 3c is a 3c whether in KS1, KS2 or KS3.  All stages use the same APP descriptors, so if the 3c judgement has been made using APP sheets, then it would be the same thing.  So we were told.


But do you believe them? Wink

Doesn't a year 2 level 3 have strong sentence structure, which is often what is lacking in a year 6 level 3, whereas a year 6 may have a better control of narrative voice, say, which a year 2 child might not have???????? Could you really look at two pieces of writing and not know which was the year 6 and which was the year 2?
twinkle298

I think this is an interesting point. If you think about it logically the work should be the same if it is the same level no matter what year group the child is in. However, a level 3 in year 2 is a very bright and able child, whereas a level 3 in year 6 is below average (quite considerably if only a 3c). Therefore their grasp of the task set and ability in different areas will vary because they have different levels of ability and maturity.
Knightrider

Dunno  Evil or Very Mad
bloott

Would the differences say in narrative voice/sentence structure even themselves out across the range of areas that you assess for APP? Just having marked a load of Y2 SATs (and not a level 3 amongst them boo hoo) Some children were stronger in the composition and effect than others who were stronger in the sentence structure and ok the differences weren't major but they did even out.
JD1970

twinkle298 wrote:
I think this is an interesting point. If you think about it logically the work should be the same if it is the same level no matter what year group the child is in. However, a level 3 in year 2 is a very bright and able child, whereas a level 3 in year 6 is below average (quite considerably if only a 3c). Therefore their grasp of the task set and ability in different areas will vary because they have different levels of ability and maturity.


So it's different aspects of their writing that is gaining them the level 3 aspects at those different ages.
thehawk

JD1970 wrote:
twinkle298 wrote:
I think this is an interesting point. If you think about it logically the work should be the same if it is the same level no matter what year group the child is in. However, a level 3 in year 2 is a very bright and able child, whereas a level 3 in year 6 is below average (quite considerably if only a 3c). Therefore their grasp of the task set and ability in different areas will vary because they have different levels of ability and maturity.


So it's different aspects of their writing that is gaining them the level 3 aspects at those different ages.


Does that make them "comparable"?
wotton

it's too much like work at this time of night ,I'm getting more confuzzled!
Knightrider

Why do you want to know Hawk?  I'm intreagued to know what other people thing about this one now.

Does it only become a problem when the year 2 child fails to make "sufficient" progress in subsequent years?  Does it matter at all?  Are you trying to do whole school moderation? Would it cause problems with tracking if the year 2 child didn't make as much progress as you expected?
thehawk

we were doing cross year group moderating.  Which was fine as we only did neighbouring year groups.

THe whole point being a 3c should be a 3c anywhere in the school.  But I just don't think it has merit. The goalposts move.  Then a level 5 in year 6 is not a level 5 in year 7, and so on. It seems a bit like an unachievable goal and a waste of time.

Why does it matter? We can always identify good and poor writers, why go through a huge paper trail which is flawed anyway?
dillsage

A level 3 is a level 3 is a level 3... maybe, BUT
'level 3' is an arbitrary cut-off on a developmental scale that doesn't move in simple steps and the actual age of the child does make a difference.

I don't think that a level 3 from an able year 2 does feel like a level 3 for a weak year 6 - I can see how it is reasonable to assign them both the same level, for the sake of simplicity, but their 'next steps' are likely to be quite different, as they will have had very different prior teaching.  I think the APP exemplars would be much more useful if they included an 'average year 3/4' level 3 - the able yr 2 and the weak year 5 examples are useful, but are much harder to compare with work from pupils currently in yr 3/4 (who you might expect to be at level 3), and they just don't 'feel' like the same thing - partly because they've been taught different things (the yr 5 example 'Jason' includes writing that clearly echoes directly a lot of the yr 5 teaching, so it is less helpful when trying to level yr 3 or yr 4 work).  That's what I think anyway!
Night Garden

We have done this across the school as well and I know how annoying it can be. There are different expectations as well. When you think of a yr 6 compared to a yr 2 you would expect the writing to be different.
You could also say the same for a child who is EAL.

I have a 3c (yr6) writer in my class. I would say that certain aspects of their writing is different to a yr 2. Main obvious one would be vocabulary. MY 3c can use higher level vocabulary, connective and openers compared to a yr 2 at same level. But then that is what we are teaching then at yr 6. They can format a sentence but not correctly and some areas of writing does not make sense and is basic. This is maybe where the yr 2 would show more awarness.

I think schools do this so they assume everyone is moderating on the same path. But after having two insets on this I still disagree with a lot of what other teacher say.But as majority rules it is decided.
wicked witch

I think they are comparable in that they would both show elements of what is considered to be level 3 writing. As others have said, the next steps would probably be very different.
Totally disagree that a year 5 level 5 is different to a year 7 level 5. We sent our level 5's examples up to the high school for a moderation session and they came out really well. I think by then most of the grammar stuff has been taught so maybe it's easier to get a level playing field.
It is interesting though. I think cross phase levels have got closer to being the same over the past few years.
Olivia_B

I think a level 3 in Year 6 appears different from a level 3 in Year 2 because of the context of the work and, possibly, the maturity of the child. I think the same is true when you look at level 4 or 5 work completed by secondary age children.
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